Mandy Fisher: Women’s snooker president predicts narrowing of gender gap
Last updated on 12 June 202312 June 2023.From the section Snooker
World Women’s Snooker president Mandy Fisher (right) presenting the 2022 Scottish Open runner-up prize to Mink Nutcharut
Women’s snooker head Mandy Fisher says the “new generation” of female players will be able to compete with men.
The former world champion is now the president of World Women’s Snooker, the organisation she founded in 1981.
From the days when some clubs had signs reading ‘No women allowed’, Fisher believes the sport is now close to having a level playing field.
In the BBC snooker podcast Framed, Fisher spoke of the great strides the women’s game has taken in recent years.
The introduction of two-year tour cards for women on the World Snooker Tour in 2021 has been key to elevating the sport to the point where women players are “role models” to girls coming through, and where Ng On-yee – who last year beat former world champion Ken Doherty in a qualifying event – is a “superstar” in Hong Kong, she says.
“It’s absolutely huge. It’s a platform. It’s a learning curve,” said Fisher.
“It has brought more players to the game because they’re realizing that, like [19-year-old British Open champion] Bai Yulu – she probably would have remained in China and just played from there had it not been for the fact that we were given the tour cards. So she came to the Women’s World Championship for the first time ever this year to try and win that tour card.
“So it just gives fantastic opportunities, not just for women, but for minority countries that don’t play snooker. It just builds snooker in each of those countries – for women as well as for men.”
World number one Reanne Evans, Rebecca Kenna, 2022 women’s world champion Mink Nutcharut and reigning world champion Baipat Siripaporn have all been offered tour cards.
Evans made history in January by becoming the first woman to beat a man in a televised ranking snooker event, when she beat Stuart Bingham in the Snooker Shoot Out.
Fisher predicts that such wins will become more commonplace.
“Yes, they haven’t won many matches. They have won frames, which is a stepping stone,” she said.
Ng On-yee is a “superstar” in Hong Kong, says Mandy Fisher
“But you have to bear in mind that that they’ve never played until recent years on the Star tables.
“You can’t explain to people there is so much difference from playing on club tables, and unless you’ve got your own Star table installed, you are not going to go to a tournament and play your best because they are just so different from anything else that most people have ever played on.
“But you can see the standard improving all the time. The women have won matches, they’re not at the bottom of the ranking list and they’re doing really well.
“You’ve got to give people a chance. Whether you’re male or female, coming on the tour you’re probably going to struggle. It’s like anything, to get used to the surroundings, the environment.
“To play your best it can take players years and years. And we know that because there are players coming through now, who have been playing for 20 years and not done anything, but in these last few years they’re doing really well.”
Fisher added that the women’s game has come a long way since the dark days when she was world champion, in 1984.
“Most women don’t go in snooker clubs,” she added. “They go in pubs, and in pubs there are pool tables. I’m not saying pool isn’t skilful, because I know it is skilful. I’m just saying that the leap from being good at pool to being good at snooker is a very difficult one to take.
“I was not able to play in all the snooker clubs, or I was the first woman ever to go and play in these clubs because you would have signs saying ‘No women allowed’, so it takes generations to get over that.
“Now there are academies and more snooker centres that make women more welcome, and you are seeing more people playing.
“It will take some time, but I just can’t see any physical reason why women should not be as good as men.”
Reanne Evans battled through cue and health issues at last month’s Women’s British Open to retain her professional status and secure another two years on the World Snooker Tour, now she hopes to showcase her best game on the sport’s grandest stages.
The 12-time Women’s World Champion has struggled to find her best form in recent times. However, she has been hindered by an undiagnosed tremor which has impacted her game.
Despite this and last minute cue damage, she managed to outperform rival Ng On Yee to reach the British Open final and remain at the top of the Women’s world rankings. Evans lost the title match 4-3 to 19-year-old Chinese sensation Bai Yulu, who was runner-up to Thailand’s Baipat Siripaporn at the Women’s World Championship.
We’ve caught up with Evans to reflect on the British Open and discuss the current global trend of women’s snooker.
Reanne, first of all congratulations on retaining your tour card. How pleased were you to achieve that feat?
“I think everyone wanted a showdown with me against On Yee. It didn’t happen in the end. I wasn’t really thinking anything heading into that tournament. I didn’t think I could win it or play any good. I had a lot of issues going on and my cue was damaged. I actually played quite well in the end. Snooker is a random sport, I didn’t expect it. When I got to the final, I thought I was going to win but I was just so drained. Bai is half my age so she could probably have played another whole day of snooker. She deserved it in the end and she outlasted me. She is great for the game, has a good following and is a good young talent.”
How did your cue become damaged?
“I went to watch the World Seniors at the Crucible and Jason Francis said I could take my cue to have a hit on the practice table. I went to see everyone and enjoyed a couple of days there. As I was walking back from the venue to the hotel, it absolutely poured down with rain. I never thought anything of it. I got back home a day or two later and went for a practice. My daughter picked up my cue and said it felt funny. I said it was probably nothing and told her to go and wash her hands. When I chalked my cue, the chalk was damp and I looked and saw the wood was actually over the ferule. I was panicking and had to go up to the loft to find my old cue. The ferrule of that was black and mouldy so I had to clean it up and put on a new tip. My two cues are now with John Parris and he has done a refurb on them both.”
You have been dealing with a tremor recently. How hard has that been to contend with?
“At the moment it isn’t as bad, maybe because I’m not playing as much. There are just things in day to day life which trigger it. I have a couple of more scans to go to and will speak to neurologists to try and get it sorted.
“When it first started it was quite bad. There was a lot of publicity around women playing on the main tour, with the tour cards coming in. Matches were on TV and I was under the microscope. Most of last season, I had no feeling in my arm whatsoever. I was questioning whether I play quick, whether I play jabby or slowly. Nothing seemed to work. I didn’t know if I was coming or going. All the way down the right side of my body was shaking. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of it. I think not knowing what it is or what has caused it has been the main problem. Once you know you can start dealing with it.
“I probably shouldn’t have played last season when it was at its worst. However, we have been given this opportunity and it is something you think you can’t not turn up or withdraw. Hopefully it can be controlled a bit more.”
Now you have managed to get back on, what are the targets for the next two seasons?
“Since getting on the main tour I’ve been looking to win a few matches. It hasn’t been like on the Women’s Tour when I am looking to win events. That is a strange feeling. When I enter something, I want to win it. I know that’s not going to happen. It is a weird situation. It isn’t just not winning matches, I want to win the event. Changing the mentality is hard, but maybe I need to find a different approach. I love a challenge and I need to go out there and do my best. I have nothing to prove now. That is all on the young players like Bai, Baipat, Mink and the rest of them. I am older now. It is good that there is some youth and experience. They inspire me and hopefully I still inspire them sometimes. I have no real targets. I just want to see what happens. I still enjoy it and especially when I play well. If you enjoy a challenge, then you will always enjoy snooker because it is such a hard sport.”
How important do you think the tour cards have been for the women’s game?
“I think it is great for players like Baipat and Bai. They have no scars and just want to go out and enjoy it. I read Bai saying something about just wanting to play for herself. I thought that was great as it was what I used to think like. It got to the point when for a few years the limelight was just on me and I started trying to play for everyone. You get more pressure then and you have more people watching you. Everything is on your shoulders. I think it is fantastic for those young players coming on that there are a few of them.
“I still get messages now saying they didn’t realise women played. That is frustrating after all these years. To see what it is like in Thailand and see how many young girls play is just brilliant. We all get on really well and we want to do the best for ourselves and the best for the sport. There is a lot of talent out there now.”
How impressed have you been with how Bai Yulu performed at the British Open and at Q School?
“Because she is so young and just wants to pot balls she doesn’t think too much. She has a great game and is very confident. Her long potting is amazing. The other parts of her game will come with more experience. People were impressed with the pink she potted against Josh Thomond in the decider at Q School, but I was more impressed with the black. She just got down and didn’t even think about it. You need to do the right things at the right times and I think she did.”
Before you continue to read this piece I want you to know that I have the uttermost respect for Mandy, who, for decades, has fought to develop the Women’s game, even when it was at its lowest. She fought through discrimination, contempt, derision, lack of support and lack of money. She never lost her love for her sport and she kept hope against all hopes. She’s a snooker hero and doesn’t get enough recognition for what she did, and still does. Thank you Mandy!
The first thing I will say – admit actually – is that I have been disappointed overall with the results of the women on the main tour. I expected better. That said I had no idea that Reanne was suffering with physical issues. I thought that she looked flat and demotivated at times, but, of course, if she was struggling physically whilst, at the same time, being acutely aware of the fans expectations, it can’t have been easy. I do wish Reanne the best and I hope that the doctors will be able to identify the cause of the problem, and cure it.
On Yee has been quite disappointing as well. Of course she also has her own issues. With the “Elite Sport” status of snooker under threat in Hong Kong, and with it, its future funding uncertain, she had her own concerns and additional pressure to deal with. She also traveled a lot back and forth between the UK and Hong Kong. That said, her last main tour match was encouraging: she lost to Michael Holt by 10-8 at the 2023 World qualifiers: She had five breaks over 50 in that match, including a 115, Michael had eight breaks over 50. It was a very high standard match and she certainly didn’t disgrace herself. She can score, she showed it again in the Asian Q-School, but IMO she would benefit from playing a bit faster and more aggressively.
Mink lacks cuepower. She is petite. Whenever she needs to apply cuepower, her accuracy suffers. We have seen the same with some of the men who are handicapped by a very short stature, like, for instance, Zhang Anda. There is nothing they can do about it. Some of the shots tall players – like Judd Trump or Neil Robertson for instance – can play, elevating the cue and creating a lot of spin, are simply not available to them (unless the step up on a crate 😉) … you can’t beat physics.
I’m afraid that those poor results have only reinforced the prejudices of those who believe that women are useless at snooker, should not be allowed on the main tour and will never be able to reach the Crucible. Unfortunately there are quite a few around on social media.
It will be interesting to see what Baipat will be able to do.
Bai Yulu has really impressed in the Q-School. No disrespect to Mandy, but I’m not convinced that Bai came to the UK because of the Women’s tour. She’s used to play the men in China and she entered the Q-School where she gave a really good account of herself. I do hope that she will be able to play on the Q-Tour.
Mandy says that there has been increased interest in the Women’s tour events since women are seen on TV playing on the main tour, more girls and women wanting to play. That’s obviously a positive. But to really progress to their full potential, I feel that the best of them, once they reach a certain level, need to play the men as well.
Finally, I’m not entirely convinced that there are “no physical reasons”, why women can’t compete with men. Strength and height are factors but maybe not prohibitive obstacles. However denying that there are physical differences is stupid and unhelpful.
We, women are, on average, shorter, we have less physical strength and we are built differently. We have narrower shoulders, boobs, wider hips, and the shape of our legs – because of the wider hips – is different too. All of these elements have an impact on our stance. I ‘m pretty useless at snooker, but I tried to work with a coach for a short while. Johnny was very patient and he tried his best to teach me the “perfect stance”, the “Hendry like” stuff. It was almost impossible, extremely uncomfortable, notably with boobs coming in the way of the cue.
In his latest book, in the chapter about practice, Ronnie speaks about the importance of the hips when it comes to the stance and alignment. You would expect that he knows his stuff. Well that’s an area where the anatomical difference between men and women is massive.
Also, speaking of strength, of course, on average women are not as strong as men. But that’s not all: the “repartition” of strength – if that makes sense – is different. Whilst males usually have a lot stronger shoulders and arms, women feel strong around the waist and hips. Ask a man to carry a 18 months baby around for half an hour, he will likely sit the kid on his shoulders, ask a women and she will probably carry it around her waist, sitting on one hip, or strapped on her lower back.
Yes we are anatomically different. I wonder if any coach ever did put some real effort into looking at the anatomy of both genders and maybe find a stance, or stances, that can be recommended depending on gender or body types. And of course then, there is another challenge. Those anatomical differences mainly develop with puberty. Some kids start very young, which is good, but then coaches need be able and prepared to guide them through the anatomical changes.
12 thoughts on “Some thoughts about Mandy Fisher’s and Reanne Evans’ interviews”
I have no problem with women playing snooker and I have always supported the World Women’s Snooker Tour – however…
Whilst it is fair to say that many would be disappointed with the results so far from the women on the main tour, I don’t really think we should have expected anything more.
What is abundantly clear, and was before the women were given tour cards, is that these women simply aren’t good enough. Mink is probably the closest of the first 4 and Baipat may prove to be better. Bai Yulu could well surpass them all but, having said that, she still didn’t make it through Q School.
Is it significant that Reanne Evans didn’t even enter Q School as a backup in case she didn’t get her card back via the Women’s Tour?
Is it significant that Ng On Yee chose to go the (easier?) Asia/Oceania Q School rather than the UK one?
One thing is for sure, the Women’s Tour providing tour cards is a mistake. The main tour is not the place for anyone to learn the game.
(NB: I don’t think main tour cards should be given to any category such as age, location, gender etc. There are many better ways to select players for the main tour – but that’s another argument.)
Before the tour cards were given to the women, their tour was often streamed. But when there were professionals playing, the WPBSA contracts apparently prevented that. Jason Ferguson suggested that they were happy to wait for the standard on the women’s tour to improve before being streamed again.
How many of the players on the women’s tour are capable of century breaks – or even 50 breaks?
To me, it would be better if the professionals weren’t allowed to play on the women’s tour and the women’s tour was streamed. This would help to encourage more women to play on the tour, or even take up the game, if they realised they could actually compete.
Also, there should be more help and encouragement from WWS to get more women entering regional and national women’s events before being expected to play on a world pro/am tour. We have seen the likes of Reanne Evans playing girls aged under 10 in ranking events!
There is absolutely nothing in my mind that would prevent a young girl from taking part in junior events along with boys and learning the game at the same pace. Any physical differences can be a challenge but not a total barrier. Look to the WDBS for inspiration on that one! But they need the WWS and the NGBs to work together to give them something to compete in.
The best women players could be entering mixed gender events if they want to prove/test themselves and, when proven to be good enough, go on to challenge for places on the main tour – just like the men do.
Michael there is a lot in this comment I agree with but I’m not sure you realise the extend of discrimination girls and women still face at grassroots and amateur level in the UK. Rebecca Kenna started playing snooker as an adult. She became good enough to be included in the local club team, a team playing in the local league. However that proved problematic. Why? Because, on a too regular basis, when they played as the visitor team, the club where the matches were supposed to happen, didn’t allow Rebecca to play, because they simply didn’t allow women to play in their club. Yes, you read it right. And it was not just once, it was a regular occurrence. Of course, that was a problem for her team, and humiliating for her. So much so that she eventually gave up playing the league. Here is a piece by the BBC about it: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-47710362 . How do you think young girls, teenager girls feel in such environment?
As for Bai Yulu, yes she didn’t qualify. She still came 41st in the order of merit list, ahead a host of former pros and alleged “brilliant prospects: Billy Castle, Eden Sharav, Liam Davies, Connor Benzey, Jamie Wilson, Sean Maddock, Gerard Greene, Paul Deaville to name only a few. She ran the experienced Craig Steadman very close. Against Bedford, I believe that she eventually ran of of steam. She did better than 80% of the Q-School entrants.
I’m old enough to remember playing league snooker when it was common for women not even to be allowed into the snooker room.
I don’t understand why the WPBSA and the NGB don’t put significant pressure on leagues and clubs to stop this discrimination in today’s world.
Leagues could easily make it a rule that clubs have to allow women to play.
I am chair of our local league and I can assure you we wouldn’t allow women to be discriminated against.
I don’t think there are any junior clubs in the UK that don’t allow girls to play and I would think it’s only private members clubs where there is still a problem.
Bai Yulu did great and significantly better than any woman has done before in my opinion.
But I don’t believe anyone should be on the main tour if they can’t get through events like Q School.
Having said that, I hate Q School and firmly believe it should be scrapped.
I’m not saying that Bai should be on the main tour. Actually, if she can stay in the UK, join a good academy, play in the Q-Tour and adapt to the UK way of life, this “failure” will probably prove to be a blessing in disguise. And she can also play on the Women tour. Why not.
I don’t believe that the Q-school is the best instrument to find out who is apt and ready to play on the Main Tour for so many reasons that I don’t know where to start. Yes, it should be scrapped. I believe that we need a proper international secondary tour. We need the whole sport to become far less UK centric. And we need a rating system – rather than the stupid money list – that would offer flexibility and inclusiveness.
After six woman-years on the tour, we’ve seen a handful of wins, about one per woman and year. That was considerably worse than I thought. It was patently disconcerting.
There is one thing that worries me even more. I can’t recall how often I have heard or read that women need to enter the main tour to develop their game. That doing so would be a serious boost, and whatnot… It seemed entirely plausible to me.
If that were actually the case, Evans and Ng should, after two years of “boost”, be seriously ahead of any mere amateur competitors. Looking at the last woman’s world championship, the last professionals were thrown out in the semi-finals, and the final was an amateur-only affair. The British Open saw Evans in the final, but I’d be hard pressed to recognize any sizeable “boost” in the professionals’ results.
What does that tell us? I am not at all sure, but… My (very vague) sense is that anyone who enters the main tour before she (or he, for that matter) has close to even odds in matches against the lowest quarter of the ranking list, and a serious chance against those in the lower half, is making way too many negative experiences. The effect may well be grave dents in those players’ confidence, in conjunction with heightened strains derived from unmet expectations and unfulfilled hopes, which might show up on all kinds of negative effects up to and including otherwise inexplicable “tremors”. Cracks in a player’s self-confidence, I’d surmise, may easily overwhelm any and all progress on the skill side of their game, provided there are any.
So, does that prove anything, let alone conclusively? Nope, not in the least. Deriving inferences from that few cases is fraught with peril. I’d just say, the evidence for “Get on the main tour to get ahead” may be thinner than I expected.
That Bai Yulu didn’t make it to the main tour was disappointing, and it may very well be a blessing. She gets another year carefully to develop her game, to mature, to learn to live, and to get to learn about herself and what lies ahead for her. The exact same task, it should be said, awaits any young male player. It’s just so that not everyone sits on their shoulders yelling in their ears, “You can’t win!” Which, quite obviously, puts women at a severe disadvantage even if other obstacles were removed, like lack of funding, lack of access to first-rate training facilities, or non-snooker demands and burdens like, say, making a living by means other than playing snooker, managing a household or, heaven forbid, raising children. Let’s not kid ourselves about who still does the heavy lifting there.
That said, I hope to live to see many women succeed on the main tour, and maybe even the first female triple crown winner. Why not? Upper body strength can be trained, and hips and boobs of a reasonable size should not be serious obstacles. More than just a few men succeed in snooker with… well, quite a bit by way of obstacle. I hope, those rising through the ranks right now get the best of counsel, the best of support, and get the timing exactly right for their skill level and their personality.
I absolutely agree with all this Grump. Thank you for this truly excellent contribution. Any thoughts of the stance bit? After all we have seen a number of players “departing” from the “recommended perfect stance”. A lot of tall players for instance, play with both legs bent; Walden and King are examples. Some players with a very strongly dominant eye turn their head and put the cue right under their dominant eye, rather than under their chin. Are there some adjustments that could, maybe, be recommended to suit the female anatomy better?
Thanks a lot.
I fear, I have nothing of any worth to say about “stance”. Other than, perhaps, decreeing one “perfect stance” for bodies of all sizes, shapes and proportions appears absurd. I think we agree on that. Also this…
“In his latest book, in the chapter about practice, Ronnie speaks about the importance of the hips when it comes to the stance and alignment. You would expect that he knows his stuff. Well that’s an area where the anatomical difference between men and women is massive.”
Yes, he knows his stuff. Does that mean, in light of massive differences, he knows HER stuff? I fear, that does not necessarily follow.
I am perfectly useless with a cue, and my “wisdom” pretty much ends with, “Your body shouldn’t move during a shot.” That is faintly (in my mind) related to “stance”, but much more closely to body control. I’d look to, say, artistic gymnasts for a solid notion of that. I am aware that’s no help. It doesn’t so much as aspire to same.
Grump I think there is a misunderstanding here. I never thought or suggested that Ronnie knows better than Reanne, or any other player about their stance, or game, or routine. The reason this part about the importance of the hips struck me is because I have heard coaches going about a lot of stuff: how and where you should put your hand on the table, how the cue should rest on your bridge, how/where your head should be, depending on your dominant eye, where you feet should be, and the position of your legs… you name it … but I never heard a word about the hips. So maybe they don’t find it particularly important and it’s one of those things that became a bit of an obsession on Ronnie’s part (we have seen such obsessions before). Or maybe there is something in it that the perfectionist he is has spotted and he truly believes it’s important. In which case, it may, possibly, be something coaches should take into consideration when teaching debutants about the right “stance” because of the obvious anatomical difference between genders. But, of course, eventually, every person is different, and every player develops their own stance.
Okay, point taken.
Since the whole body & cue entity is involved in any shot, along with floor and table contacts, hips should be part of that. They join together the various forces from, and on, the feet.
Maybe, for female players having a female coach would be advantageous, since these may have had to cope with the same, or similar, obstacles, and found solutions which wouldn’t occur to male coaches. On the other hand, comparing Kenna to Ng, for instance, it appears to me there probably isn’t a “perfect female stance” either, given the dissimilarities.
Anyway, I find that practicing a sport other than snooker, maybe something more dynamic than that, may well impart benefits in terms of improved body control, which then improve stability and consistency. Ronnie’s running may well be part of the reason why he (still) stands out among his peers, and he’s in better shape than most of them, too.
But then, having already admitted to having nothing of any worth to say on that, and feeling more like an impostor whilst typing, I’ll now bow out.
Like you, I was very much disappointed with the women’s performance on the main tour. But you have to start somewhere. Given the horrible sexism in snooker clubs, I do think that some women-only game might be useful as a “developmental tour” for girls. However, seeing the standard there, it is certainly not the place for ambitious women. If I read it correctly, Mandy said that Bai Yulu came to play the women’s championship because it offered a tourcard to to the winner and she wanted that tourcard. I hope she will continue playing men and continue to develop. On the one hand, as they often say: players need to know that if they make mistakes they will be punished: I don’t think this happens on the women’s tour and I’m afraid Evan, On Yee, Kenna are too old and spent too much time there to be “hurt” by it and I hope Bai and maybe Baipat will not sink into the lack of quality on the women’s tour. On the other hand, someone said on social media that Bai Yulu has the game boys have at the age of 16. Yes, she is 19, but that is OK. What I don’t see why women would not be able to cue and build a break and why should they always go for safeties or miss the pot. But as of now I just hope that those young ones who are not satisfied with what the women’s tour provides. will not be discouraged.
Okay. I’ve now spent considerable time figuring that out, and why I initially resented that posting so much.
“On the one hand, as they often say: players need to know that if they make mistakes they will be punished: I don’t think this happens on the women’s tour and I’m afraid Evan, On Yee, Kenna are too old and spent too much time there to be “hurt” by it …”
The women are 37, 32, and 34 years of age. With at least a decade to go until they reach, say, Ronnie’s age, they are by no means “too old”. Also, they are all serious snooker players, they do know they are going to be punished for mistakes on the main tour, even while they mostly get away with them on the women’s tour. I am also convinced they are hurting, just like the next guy, upon being punished. I cannot even begin to fathom why anyone would assume otherwise.
To me, the exact opposite is a more likely candidate for the truth: They are so fearful of being punished by opponents more capable than they are used to, they freeze. As anyone who has ever had to perform under such strains has to know, the simplest of tasks are then often out of reach, at least for a terribly long while. That is, I’d say, confirmed by women, before they really arrive in their match, falling 0:2 or even 0:3 behind. Only then they realize the opponent isn’t the giant they assumed him to be, calm down and start playing, and winning a frame or two, but that’s mostly too late. That isn’t really proof, just an impression.
Anyway, too old, and too long on the women’s tour to care about being punished, that I will not concede, ever. Why then do I still think you may have a point? I think women have one main task made particularly hard for them, that is, losing the fear of losing. Doing that by necessity requires (of course) positive experiences, winning, even against the odds, at least keeping up, and at a young age if at all possible. Separate tours prevent that from happening, even more so does training separately. That means that women should play against men as early and often as possible, provided these are selected to be about on par. On the other hand, throwing women into the main tour before they are ready, provides the exact opposite experience. Confidence is crucial in snooker, delicate too, and needs to be built up with care, with expectations that are both ambitious AND realistic. Whether the ladies in question can still get into that mindset… I have no idea. Now that the four of them have been thrown into the pool, I have to hope they develop the confidence they can swim, and fast.
Ronnie O'Sullivan 
I have no problem with women playing snooker and I have always supported the World Women’s Snooker Tour – however…
Whilst it is fair to say that many would be disappointed with the results so far from the women on the main tour, I don’t really think we should have expected anything more.
What is abundantly clear, and was before the women were given tour cards, is that these women simply aren’t good enough. Mink is probably the closest of the first 4 and Baipat may prove to be better. Bai Yulu could well surpass them all but, having said that, she still didn’t make it through Q School.
Is it significant that Reanne Evans didn’t even enter Q School as a backup in case she didn’t get her card back via the Women’s Tour?
Is it significant that Ng On Yee chose to go the (easier?) Asia/Oceania Q School rather than the UK one?
One thing is for sure, the Women’s Tour providing tour cards is a mistake. The main tour is not the place for anyone to learn the game.
(NB: I don’t think main tour cards should be given to any category such as age, location, gender etc. There are many better ways to select players for the main tour – but that’s another argument.)
Before the tour cards were given to the women, their tour was often streamed. But when there were professionals playing, the WPBSA contracts apparently prevented that. Jason Ferguson suggested that they were happy to wait for the standard on the women’s tour to improve before being streamed again.
How many of the players on the women’s tour are capable of century breaks – or even 50 breaks?
To me, it would be better if the professionals weren’t allowed to play on the women’s tour and the women’s tour was streamed. This would help to encourage more women to play on the tour, or even take up the game, if they realised they could actually compete.
Also, there should be more help and encouragement from WWS to get more women entering regional and national women’s events before being expected to play on a world pro/am tour. We have seen the likes of Reanne Evans playing girls aged under 10 in ranking events!
There is absolutely nothing in my mind that would prevent a young girl from taking part in junior events along with boys and learning the game at the same pace. Any physical differences can be a challenge but not a total barrier. Look to the WDBS for inspiration on that one! But they need the WWS and the NGBs to work together to give them something to compete in.
The best women players could be entering mixed gender events if they want to prove/test themselves and, when proven to be good enough, go on to challenge for places on the main tour – just like the men do.
Michael there is a lot in this comment I agree with but I’m not sure you realise the extend of discrimination girls and women still face at grassroots and amateur level in the UK. Rebecca Kenna started playing snooker as an adult. She became good enough to be included in the local club team, a team playing in the local league. However that proved problematic. Why? Because, on a too regular basis, when they played as the visitor team, the club where the matches were supposed to happen, didn’t allow Rebecca to play, because they simply didn’t allow women to play in their club. Yes, you read it right. And it was not just once, it was a regular occurrence. Of course, that was a problem for her team, and humiliating for her. So much so that she eventually gave up playing the league. Here is a piece by the BBC about it: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-47710362 . How do you think young girls, teenager girls feel in such environment?
As for Bai Yulu, yes she didn’t qualify. She still came 41st in the order of merit list, ahead a host of former pros and alleged “brilliant prospects: Billy Castle, Eden Sharav, Liam Davies, Connor Benzey, Jamie Wilson, Sean Maddock, Gerard Greene, Paul Deaville to name only a few. She ran the experienced Craig Steadman very close. Against Bedford, I believe that she eventually ran of of steam. She did better than 80% of the Q-School entrants.
I’m old enough to remember playing league snooker when it was common for women not even to be allowed into the snooker room.
I don’t understand why the WPBSA and the NGB don’t put significant pressure on leagues and clubs to stop this discrimination in today’s world.
Leagues could easily make it a rule that clubs have to allow women to play.
I am chair of our local league and I can assure you we wouldn’t allow women to be discriminated against.
I don’t think there are any junior clubs in the UK that don’t allow girls to play and I would think it’s only private members clubs where there is still a problem.
Bai Yulu did great and significantly better than any woman has done before in my opinion.
But I don’t believe anyone should be on the main tour if they can’t get through events like Q School.
Having said that, I hate Q School and firmly believe it should be scrapped.
I’m not saying that Bai should be on the main tour. Actually, if she can stay in the UK, join a good academy, play in the Q-Tour and adapt to the UK way of life, this “failure” will probably prove to be a blessing in disguise. And she can also play on the Women tour. Why not.
I don’t believe that the Q-school is the best instrument to find out who is apt and ready to play on the Main Tour for so many reasons that I don’t know where to start. Yes, it should be scrapped. I believe that we need a proper international secondary tour. We need the whole sport to become far less UK centric. And we need a rating system – rather than the stupid money list – that would offer flexibility and inclusiveness.
After six woman-years on the tour, we’ve seen a handful of wins, about one per woman and year. That was considerably worse than I thought. It was patently disconcerting.
There is one thing that worries me even more. I can’t recall how often I have heard or read that women need to enter the main tour to develop their game. That doing so would be a serious boost, and whatnot… It seemed entirely plausible to me.
If that were actually the case, Evans and Ng should, after two years of “boost”, be seriously ahead of any mere amateur competitors. Looking at the last woman’s world championship, the last professionals were thrown out in the semi-finals, and the final was an amateur-only affair. The British Open saw Evans in the final, but I’d be hard pressed to recognize any sizeable “boost” in the professionals’ results.
What does that tell us? I am not at all sure, but… My (very vague) sense is that anyone who enters the main tour before she (or he, for that matter) has close to even odds in matches against the lowest quarter of the ranking list, and a serious chance against those in the lower half, is making way too many negative experiences. The effect may well be grave dents in those players’ confidence, in conjunction with heightened strains derived from unmet expectations and unfulfilled hopes, which might show up on all kinds of negative effects up to and including otherwise inexplicable “tremors”. Cracks in a player’s self-confidence, I’d surmise, may easily overwhelm any and all progress on the skill side of their game, provided there are any.
So, does that prove anything, let alone conclusively? Nope, not in the least. Deriving inferences from that few cases is fraught with peril. I’d just say, the evidence for “Get on the main tour to get ahead” may be thinner than I expected.
That Bai Yulu didn’t make it to the main tour was disappointing, and it may very well be a blessing. She gets another year carefully to develop her game, to mature, to learn to live, and to get to learn about herself and what lies ahead for her. The exact same task, it should be said, awaits any young male player. It’s just so that not everyone sits on their shoulders yelling in their ears, “You can’t win!” Which, quite obviously, puts women at a severe disadvantage even if other obstacles were removed, like lack of funding, lack of access to first-rate training facilities, or non-snooker demands and burdens like, say, making a living by means other than playing snooker, managing a household or, heaven forbid, raising children. Let’s not kid ourselves about who still does the heavy lifting there.
That said, I hope to live to see many women succeed on the main tour, and maybe even the first female triple crown winner. Why not? Upper body strength can be trained, and hips and boobs of a reasonable size should not be serious obstacles. More than just a few men succeed in snooker with… well, quite a bit by way of obstacle. I hope, those rising through the ranks right now get the best of counsel, the best of support, and get the timing exactly right for their skill level and their personality.
I absolutely agree with all this Grump. Thank you for this truly excellent contribution. Any thoughts of the stance bit? After all we have seen a number of players “departing” from the “recommended perfect stance”. A lot of tall players for instance, play with both legs bent; Walden and King are examples. Some players with a very strongly dominant eye turn their head and put the cue right under their dominant eye, rather than under their chin. Are there some adjustments that could, maybe, be recommended to suit the female anatomy better?
Thanks a lot.
I fear, I have nothing of any worth to say about “stance”. Other than, perhaps, decreeing one “perfect stance” for bodies of all sizes, shapes and proportions appears absurd. I think we agree on that. Also this…
“In his latest book, in the chapter about practice, Ronnie speaks about the importance of the hips when it comes to the stance and alignment. You would expect that he knows his stuff. Well that’s an area where the anatomical difference between men and women is massive.”
Yes, he knows his stuff. Does that mean, in light of massive differences, he knows HER stuff? I fear, that does not necessarily follow.
I am perfectly useless with a cue, and my “wisdom” pretty much ends with, “Your body shouldn’t move during a shot.” That is faintly (in my mind) related to “stance”, but much more closely to body control. I’d look to, say, artistic gymnasts for a solid notion of that. I am aware that’s no help. It doesn’t so much as aspire to same.
Grump I think there is a misunderstanding here. I never thought or suggested that Ronnie knows better than Reanne, or any other player about their stance, or game, or routine. The reason this part about the importance of the hips struck me is because I have heard coaches going about a lot of stuff: how and where you should put your hand on the table, how the cue should rest on your bridge, how/where your head should be, depending on your dominant eye, where you feet should be, and the position of your legs… you name it … but I never heard a word about the hips. So maybe they don’t find it particularly important and it’s one of those things that became a bit of an obsession on Ronnie’s part (we have seen such obsessions before). Or maybe there is something in it that the perfectionist he is has spotted and he truly believes it’s important. In which case, it may, possibly, be something coaches should take into consideration when teaching debutants about the right “stance” because of the obvious anatomical difference between genders. But, of course, eventually, every person is different, and every player develops their own stance.
Okay, point taken.
Since the whole body & cue entity is involved in any shot, along with floor and table contacts, hips should be part of that. They join together the various forces from, and on, the feet.
Maybe, for female players having a female coach would be advantageous, since these may have had to cope with the same, or similar, obstacles, and found solutions which wouldn’t occur to male coaches. On the other hand, comparing Kenna to Ng, for instance, it appears to me there probably isn’t a “perfect female stance” either, given the dissimilarities.
Anyway, I find that practicing a sport other than snooker, maybe something more dynamic than that, may well impart benefits in terms of improved body control, which then improve stability and consistency. Ronnie’s running may well be part of the reason why he (still) stands out among his peers, and he’s in better shape than most of them, too.
But then, having already admitted to having nothing of any worth to say on that, and feeling more like an impostor whilst typing, I’ll now bow out.
Like you, I was very much disappointed with the women’s performance on the main tour. But you have to start somewhere. Given the horrible sexism in snooker clubs, I do think that some women-only game might be useful as a “developmental tour” for girls. However, seeing the standard there, it is certainly not the place for ambitious women. If I read it correctly, Mandy said that Bai Yulu came to play the women’s championship because it offered a tourcard to to the winner and she wanted that tourcard. I hope she will continue playing men and continue to develop. On the one hand, as they often say: players need to know that if they make mistakes they will be punished: I don’t think this happens on the women’s tour and I’m afraid Evan, On Yee, Kenna are too old and spent too much time there to be “hurt” by it and I hope Bai and maybe Baipat will not sink into the lack of quality on the women’s tour. On the other hand, someone said on social media that Bai Yulu has the game boys have at the age of 16. Yes, she is 19, but that is OK. What I don’t see why women would not be able to cue and build a break and why should they always go for safeties or miss the pot. But as of now I just hope that those young ones who are not satisfied with what the women’s tour provides. will not be discouraged.
Okay. I’ve now spent considerable time figuring that out, and why I initially resented that posting so much.
“On the one hand, as they often say: players need to know that if they make mistakes they will be punished: I don’t think this happens on the women’s tour and I’m afraid Evan, On Yee, Kenna are too old and spent too much time there to be “hurt” by it …”
The women are 37, 32, and 34 years of age. With at least a decade to go until they reach, say, Ronnie’s age, they are by no means “too old”. Also, they are all serious snooker players, they do know they are going to be punished for mistakes on the main tour, even while they mostly get away with them on the women’s tour. I am also convinced they are hurting, just like the next guy, upon being punished. I cannot even begin to fathom why anyone would assume otherwise.
To me, the exact opposite is a more likely candidate for the truth: They are so fearful of being punished by opponents more capable than they are used to, they freeze. As anyone who has ever had to perform under such strains has to know, the simplest of tasks are then often out of reach, at least for a terribly long while. That is, I’d say, confirmed by women, before they really arrive in their match, falling 0:2 or even 0:3 behind. Only then they realize the opponent isn’t the giant they assumed him to be, calm down and start playing, and winning a frame or two, but that’s mostly too late. That isn’t really proof, just an impression.
Anyway, too old, and too long on the women’s tour to care about being punished, that I will not concede, ever. Why then do I still think you may have a point? I think women have one main task made particularly hard for them, that is, losing the fear of losing. Doing that by necessity requires (of course) positive experiences, winning, even against the odds, at least keeping up, and at a young age if at all possible. Separate tours prevent that from happening, even more so does training separately. That means that women should play against men as early and often as possible, provided these are selected to be about on par. On the other hand, throwing women into the main tour before they are ready, provides the exact opposite experience. Confidence is crucial in snooker, delicate too, and needs to be built up with care, with expectations that are both ambitious AND realistic. Whether the ladies in question can still get into that mindset… I have no idea. Now that the four of them have been thrown into the pool, I have to hope they develop the confidence they can swim, and fast.